The Burn Your Mortgage Podcast: No Regret Decisions with Shannon Lee Simmons

Full  Transcript

Sean Cooper  

Hi, Shannon, how are you doing today?

Shannon Lee Simmons  

I'm good. I'm good. It's so great to chat. It's been a while.

Sean Cooper  

Yes. It's great to chat with you as well. Yes, I haven't been getting out as much as I used to work, just getting back into the swing of things after COVID. There. But, yes, it seems like you've been busy with a lot of things, including your fourth book coming out here. So yes, excited to chat with you today about all of your wonderful three books or three babies or however you want to call them there. And yeah, shares some helpful tips and advice on budgeting, personal finance, as well as homeownership. 

Sean Cooper  

Awesome. Okay, great. So, let's get started. First, on the topic of saving money and budgeting, I mean, I'm sure you hear this from all of your clients that you work with that it's just so challenging these days with the rising cost of living. I mean, before we started recording the podcast here, I heard about the city of Toronto proposing to raise the property tax by 10.5%. there for people who are already property owners, but yeah, it just seems like everything's going up the price of gas, the price of food, and people's wages aren't keeping up these days here. So yeah, what are you telling your clients these days? What tips and advice are you giving to people so that they can still save money towards important goals, whether it's upsizing to the next property or eventually buying their first property there?

Shannon Lee Simmons  

Yeah, I think I would also add in are paying down a big mortgage, I that's a big one that's coming up for me a lot are people caught in the interest rates rising, you know, locked into variable a few years ago, and now, it's seemingly like with the cost of living, it seems really tight. There's so many factors at play. So with the rise of interest rates, other consumer debts, lines of credit, or even your mortgage might have skyrocketed, and then also, the cost of food, like the day to day expenses, has also gone up with inflation. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

And then also homeownership is becoming more and more expensive. So I think that, number one, it's happening across the board, whether you're a renter, whether you're a homeowner, and regardless of what your goals are, I think Canadians in general are struggling with the cost of living, like I say this all the time, that the same lifestyle that you might have had two years ago is now just like hundreds and hundreds of dollars more expensive, and like you may not have changed anything about the way you live. And so that's really tough. So saving is difficult. So the first thing that I always say to everyone is, let's just make sure we're not going into debt.

Shannon Lee Simmons  

 And I know that that sounds like it's not a saving school. But right now with the cost of living. So high interest rates are as high as they are rather, for some people, they're just breaking even. And so what I've seen a lot of is people putting money into RRSPs and socking money away with automatic savings, and then taking on really expensive credit card debt. So the first thing I'm like, let's just make sure that the household can break even first and not slide into more debt. So reducing expenses, where we can to make room for the more expensive costs right now. And the best way to do that, and I talked about this in my first book, where you free money is this thing that I call, like happy spending or emotional return on investment. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

So really go through all of your expenses when you have to reduce and isolate the ones that would be the happiest spending, write the highest emotional return on investment for you, and then isolate the ones that are maybe lower. So that's different for everyone, like maybe for you, you would be like, Oh, I wasted money on a takeout coffee. That's, you know, I give that a one out of a five or something like that is a low emotional return. Whereas maybe for me, I love going to get a coffee. And so it's a five out of five. So should we both have coffee? Or just do it right? Like, do you know what I mean? Like there's a difference for everyone. So you have to reduce expenses, try to do it with things that are bugging you that you feel resentful of, that you feel guilty about later, that are really not sparking any sort of joy in your life. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

And then not just doing the thing that we all do, which is just blaming and shaming ourselves into cutting things like well, I'll never eat takeout again, I'll never get coffee again, I should never buy clothes. These are the ones I typically see people try to reduce. But what happens if those are your most enjoyable pleasures, you just basically assigned yourself a life where you don't get any pleasure from the money that you are allowed to spend. So I really feel strongly about reducing on purpose and specifically for you, not what somebody else says is a bad expense. I'm trying to make room that way and then trying to build up some emergency savings. But you're right, John, it's really tough. It's really, really tough out there.

Sean Cooper  

No, thanks for your perspective. And it sounds like maybe you're not a big fan of the latte factor out there. Because kind of seems like budgeting is a lot like dieting, like if you go from one extreme to the other. You're just kind of setting yourself up to fail. So I definitely like your approach where you're taking more of a balanced approach and you're saying Earning your money in a meaningful way for the things that you truly enjoy, rather than just cutting them out just for the sake of saving money, and then just being miserable and setting yourself up to fail there. 

Sean Cooper  

So yeah, I really like that rather than just the blanket-like latte factor where, oh, takeout coffee is terrible for everyone. You know, we should feel bad about doing that there. I mean, everybody has preferences when it comes to spending. So just spending your money for the things that give you the most joy definitely like that approach there?

Shannon Lee Simmons  

Well, I think you just nailed it. What I've learned over my 17 plus years on the frontline of financial planning is that if you have a financial plan that you're not excited about, you're not going to do it straight up, you're going to fail at some point, right? So it's so punishing. So I think that by doing it for your preferences, and not just what is sort of a blanket place to cut, is making sure that it's like custom, to what you want, and where you get joy, because we all work really hard. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

And there's not a lot of money leftover for spending on things that make us happy. And so let's make sure that we're trying to get some joy out of every dollar that we can, right like, especially as its cost of bills have gone up. So that doesn't feel good. That's not more, it's expenses that have gone up that we don't get any sort of emotional return from at all. So we have to make sure we get it where we can.

Sean Cooper  

Very well said and maybe I'd put myself at two or three on the coffee scale there. I think you're being a bit too strict there. But nevertheless, I'm just kidding there. But yeah, on the topic of saving money and spending and all that, I mean, I'm sure you're aware of the trend that we're going further towards a cashless society. And it's so easy to spend money these days, it's as simple as back in the day, there were chargeback scars where you had to fully pay them off. But definitely that's many decades ago. 

Sean Cooper  

Nowadays, it's as simple as just tapping your smartphone to spend money. So it seems like the credit card companies and banks have made it even easier to spend money and you go on social media and you see everyone else and enjoying your money, and you just have to do the same. So what general advice and tips do you have for people to keep their spending under control? When it seems like every service wants an extra $10 a month? I mean, you could sign up for like, only try to limit yourself to one or two streaming services. But before you know, know it, you're at five or six these days. So what advice do you have for people who are finding it difficult to be financially disciplined with all the temptation to spend and how easy it is these days? 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

Yeah, that's interesting. I think the temptation to spend an ease is a terrible combo, I even feel it myself. I have done this myself. And I've recommended it to a lot of clients. And it's been really impactful. It's hard though. So brace yourself, everybody. Like you take your credit card information out of your phone. So you don't have Apple Pay, you don't have that stuff. Use it. Like you know, like, there's all these apps now to online shopping where it's like it saved your information. Like even on Amazon, you just like you just click a button. It makes things really difficult and inconvenient to shop. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

And it's funny that I say and convenient, because it just means walking over, getting your credit card back and entering it manually. Like that shouldn't be inconvenient, but compared to what we can do these days, it is. And so even having that moment where it's like, Ah, I have to just like go get my well I don't think I wanted that. But like those things that people have said to me before, like I didn't even want it, I would have bought it if it was easy. But it was because I had to get up and go get my purse from downstairs and I really didn't even really want this thing. It was just like a momentary thing. So making it harder for yourself to spend money is actually so good. It's so important. So I'm not even saying don't I'm just saying make it harder to do. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

So you can't just do it on a whim. And the other thing too, like social media, is detrimental in a couple of ways. Number one, there's like that comparison factor, which makes it feel like you're constantly feeling deprived more often than we actually are because our brain isn't equipped to handle how many people's lives we're keeping tabs on. And so when it's normal to compare yourself to your peers, that's like a human evolution thing. But then now our peers are like 250 people doing a highlight reel. And it's like it's not normal, you're not really equipped. And so I think it leads us to feel broke more often than not and so when we feel broke, we have this tendency to be like Oh, screw it, I'll just whatever there's no point in trying I'm just gonna buy it. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

You know, I don't want to get left out or behind or I don't want to not fit in and all that kind of stuff. And then also the ads oh my gosh, like on Instagram the shot the ads for buying stuff. And you can flip through a story. Buy something within 30 seconds. Like it's that easy, because your phone is stored your preferences. The algorithm is like a predator to you.

Sean Cooper  

Yeah, they target the ads specifically towards you based on what you're looking at. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

It loves, it knows everything about you. And it knows exactly what you want when you want it. And then it's like, here it is. And then all you have to do is say shop, buy and then press the button, it's done. So if you're having a low moment or a weak moment, like you used to have to go to the mall to, like, emotionally spend money, and that happened, but now you can do it in these microtransactions without even being mindful at all. And I have seen the difference in the last 10 years. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

From that being like, introduced as a normal seen on smartphones, then before when people used to have to go and have a shopping binge, like, at a mall, like at a store. Because I'm also thinking about it. If you're physically in a mall, you have to carry the stuff you've been shopping on. At some point, you're not gonna be able to carry it all. Do you know what I mean? So like, you're gonna go home, and there's like a physical end to it. Whereas like, right, I mean, it's honestly, it's, that's real, though. Whereas like, online, you can do like 50 bucks here. 20 bucks here. 80 bucks tomorrow, like, it doesn't feel like a binge shop, it feels like small microtransactions daily. And that's when I've really noticed that trend being so making it harder for yourself. I've even had to do it myself. And I'm like a person who knows lots about money, but it's just too easy to do it.

Sean Cooper  

That's great advice. And yeah, like, it's so easy to spend these days, even apps like they're trying to get you to buy, like whether it's games, they're looking for you to basically spend money everywhere. It's hard to get a break from spending anywhere these days. And yeah, that's definitely a great tip about not saving the credit card information on the phone just to make it that much harder for you. Because even from personal experience, I've used that myself and yes to sometimes I'm like, do I really need it? Like, I'm just kind of too lazy to get up and get the credit cards. So I can really say from firsthand experience that works there. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

So does it sound silly, but it's impactful to not be so easy to do it.

Sean Cooper  

Everyone's more financially, some people are more financially disciplined than others. For people who are more financially disciplined, it may work. But if you're struggling with your spending and buying stuff that you really don't need there, then yes, I definitely think that strategy works there. And that is kind of, I'm not the biggest fan of things like Amazon Prime and Costco memberships. I mean, yeah, you can't save money. But it just seems like those things can kind of pressure you to spend more money. So yeah, just doing things to work against that so that you don't end up with a mountain of debt, I definitely think it helps a lot, especially with the higher interest rates these days.

Shannon Lee Simmons  

Yeah, and something I also talk about in living debt free is like Finding Your Trigger spending places. So a lot of times, we try to think of what we're spending too much on. But instead of that, I actually have found it really impactful to find out when am I overspending? So not really about what it's on, but more about what am I doing it so I have clients like print off, you know, three print off like actually old school, or like download into Excel really, like three or four months of, you know, credit card history, and then highlight the transactions that they don't remember that they regret. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

And then finding this if there's a trend or a similarity between all the highlighted transactions. So like, Where were you? What is this on? What do you think? What was going through? What was the emotional vibe you're feeling at the time? Was it celebratory because like, some people are emotional spenders with good things, right? Like, oh, this really good thing happened today, I'm gonna like, I deserve a present for myself, like that kind of thing. Or sometimes it's like, you're bummed out, and you make emotional decisions that way. Or sometimes you're feeling really inadequate, like I had somebody who was just divorced, and she was starting to date again. And she just didn't feel good. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

And so she was like, shopping, shopping, shopping, buying, like new clothes, because he doesn't get a lot of that was just like her own insecurity, right. And to a degree, I'm like, here for it. And then it's like, but it reached a point where instead of making her feel good, it actually started making her feel worse, because now she felt out of control. Right? So it's like, what are the emotions underneath those highlighted transactions? And something else? Not only the emotions, but also where are you? 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

I had another client who would This is so funny, but like she realized that a lot of the transactions that she were like, quick, fast, little bit of regret, like could have done without this is funny shot and but like she was in the washroom, so she was like, on her phone, in the washroom and on social media, and like buying stuff. And she's like, Oh my god, so she stopped bringing her phone in the washroom and like her neck funny. Because she was like, it was the only time I got to like, think of myself like, oh, like, I know, it sounds funny, but like, it's like those simple things like where are you? What's going on when you're doing it? And is there a trend in those triggers? I have found, like I said, that when I'm talking about debt in living debt free, it has been very impactful for people to like, get in the way of their own trigger points, so to speak.

Sean Cooper  

Thanks for sharing the story there and we'll leave the clients name out there just for 100% reasons. But yeah, I mean, just as simple as before making a bigger purchase just going for a walk and clearing your mind. I find it's helped Because yeah, you can just kind of feel pressured in the moment. They're just taking 24 hours to think about stuff like that. That has worked for me as well. So yeah, thanks so much for sharing those tips and advice there. And so I just want to finish off the conversation by talking about your third book here.

Sean Cooper  

 I mean, feel free to mention your fourth book or fourth baby, whatever you want to call it. But yeah, just wanted to talk about your third book, No Regret Decisions, as well as in the context of homeownership there, like when it comes to buying your first house or upsizing to another house there. So yeah, maybe you could just talk a bit about your book and how it relates to homeownership and people looking to get in the market these days. Because yeah, certainly it is a lot different. When I bought my first house. I mean, I bought a house for 425,000. And now the same house is worth a million in Toronto here. So yeah, definitely homeownership has. It's definitely possible. But it's more challenging than it was just a decade ago there. So yeah, maybe you could just talk a bit about those topics? 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

Absolutely. So No Regret Decision is a book that helps people. It's an early sort of stage of it. I think of your talk for talking through the lens of real estate. It's not a real estate book. But the book is a guide book, like a playbook really for making good decisions that have high emotional stakes, and high financial stakes with a ton of uncertainty. So obviously, buying your first house is a huge decision, where the financial stakes are really high, the emotional stakes are really high. And like you don't know how things are gonna pan out, like, how's your career gonna go? Like, what happens if there's a divorce down the road? Like, can we really afford this? Like, that's a huge, huge decision that you don't want to have any regrets on. Right? 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

So if you're buying your first house, it would be applicable there. The Playbook, the playbook can also be applied. If you bought a house that you can't afford. Now, you're like you have that deep regret, like, what do you do like deciding to even downsize? Like, how does that happen? I'm covering that with a lot of people right now who maybe bought a house that they can't really afford. Now that interest rates have gone up. So they're actually considering selling, and should they do that, and they don't want to make a rational decision. So like making sure that you don't regret that decision of selling, right, and like freaking, and panicking and selling. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

And then there's also like if people are wanting to if they're upsizing or renovating or anything like that the playbook is there too. And basically, what it's there, the playbook is there for it's sort of like personal crisis agnostic, it can be applied to anything. And in the book, it is applied to divorce or critical illness or fertility or buying a house or stock market volatility, but the rules of the game are the same. And through the lens of real estate, I would basically say you want to make sure there's parts of that playbook that are really important. Number one, no matter what, whether you're buying your first home, or you're in a home that you feel like you can't afford or you want to upsize and you don't want to bite off more than you can chew or you want to do a renovation or whatever it is, you want to make sure you're not making a panic or sort of I don't like the word irrational, but like a reactionary decision. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

And so a panicked decision. I'll give you a classic example like pandemic hits. Everybody's like, Oh, my God, this is never ending, I'm going to buy a house I can't afford, don't care, just because I want to get out of the city. And I want to live in the country, right? And now they regret it because they're like, oh my gosh, why did I do that, versus somebody who was never really happy here in the city and really wanted to move away. And then the pandemic happened or like, you know what, this is a perfect time, that person did the exact same thing, but they don't regret it. And that's because those two people made the decision for different reasons.

Shannon Lee Simmons  

 Right, one of them panicked and bought a house. The other one did it because they wanted to own a home, they didn't really like living in the city anyways. And this was sort of just like the catalyst, their values were that they wanted to live in the country. And so it really upheld those values, they could also really afford it. So now that interest rates have risen, they're not sitting here in a house that they can't afford. So just because both people bought a house at the same time, one person is stoked about it, even though their mortgages are up. And things didn't work out exactly as they planned. And the other person is devastated and feels like they made a horrible choice. And so the difference between those two people is that one person made a panicking decision, the book talks about how to like, make sure you're not doing that. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

And then also walks through making sure that you're picking something that I call your deciding values, which is like, you know, when you make massive decisions, like even whether to retire or quit your job and start a business or like, do we want to have a kid or any of those big life choices, you're gonna have to like prioritize your values, right? We have a million values, but for the decision that you're going to look back on and say, I don't regret that you got to pick one and do it for the right reason. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

So it walks you through that. And then perhaps most importantly, and I think that when it comes to personal finance and real estate, the book walks through these things I called pivot points and guardrails. So basically, these are points that you map out ahead of your decision that help you not regret them later. So it will take buying your first house for example. So let's say that you someone sits down with me and they're like, Shannon, we want to buy a house like great, let's do it. They run all the numbers. They're being pre approved for a $600,000 mortgage, and they've got a $200,000 down payment from an inheritance. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

Great. Here we are a $100,000 house, we run all the numbers and like, between the two of them, they can afford it even at high interest rates, cool, cool, cool. Then they go out shopping for a house, they realize that they can't find anything that they like for that price point. So they come back to me, they say, Well, what happens if we push it to $900,000 to our mortgage of $700,000? Instead of 600,000? I crunched the numbers. And I say, Okay, well, if it goes to 700, you know, you're gonna have to take less vacations, and then they're like, Okay, that's fine. We don't mind if we had a big vacation fund in there, we can do a little bit less. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

So that's the pivot point, Sean. Because it's not a No, it just means you have to shift something else in your life in order to accommodate the cost of something else, right, like the cost of this decision that you're making. So you're pivoting your plan to make room for it. So let's say that they go out, and they're like, cool, cool, cool. 900,000, we already know that we're gonna have to shift things around if we want to do that. And then they're like, patient and what happens if it was 950? And I run the numbers, and I say, Okay, let's 950 It's no vacations plus, you know, your kids extracurriculars are going to be a little bit threatened, they're like, or you're going to go into debt, like one of those things, like, okay, but like, we could do it. But like, I don't really know if I want to, because I don't want to go into debt. And I don't want to deal with a cranky kid, either. I don't want my kids to not be able to go to hockey or swimming lessons or whatever. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

So like, Okay, our limit is actually 900. So that 950 is an important guardrail. It's not imposed on them by somebody else, it's imposed on them, because the pivot would be so big, that they don't actually want it right. Like that's the point where they would consider themselves house poor. And so if you map out these things, you can apply that to any situation, right? Like, where's the point along the way where I have to change my plans, but can still do it? Versus the point along the way where the change in my plans would be so drastic, it is not worth it to me, and I don't want to do it. And so if we can map out those pivot points and guardrails before we buy real estate, before we sell real estate, before we upsize, before we renovate, then you feel really in control of how to make decisions through that process. Right? So while they're out looking at a house with a real estate agent, the real estate agents are like okay, this one's starting at 950, maybe 975. They already know like, No, I know what that means for my life. I know that I don't want to do that. I know that that means giving up a lot of stuff in being house poor. And I'm not willing to do that, versus sort of getting caught up making a panic decision or emotional decision in the moment, because we didn't have all that knowledge. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

So the book is basically a playbook for making good decisions in difficult times, right? Big stakes, high emotional stakes, high financial stakes. How do you make a decision that is like 10 years from now you look back and you're like, Well, that was a good decision with a bad outcome, but I don't regret it. That's like the whole point. And I'm not saying real estate's about an outcome. I'm just saying, like, no matter what happens, if it works out great. There's no point in worrying about it. But if it doesn't work out, how would you look back and say, I still did the right thing. That's what the book is all about?

Sean Cooper  

Well, you've sold me on your book, I was looking in the personal finance section, we were just talking offline. But I was looking at the personal finance section of chapters and I couldn't find it there. But you said you're branching out into a new genre of books. Where can people find that at the bookstore there?

Shannon Lee Simmons  

So this one, It's not that I'm not still a personal finance nerd, I'll be one forever. But this one, because it's sort of dealing with a decision crisis, and sort of going through people with love, through a divorce and aging parents and caregiving, and all these different infertility and all these things that happen in our life. It's sort of in the wellness or like Self Help section of a bookstore instead of being like the nitty gritty financial stuff, because a lot of it is working through panic values, decision making, and the skill set like that versus like, math and number crunching of the first two books.

Sean Cooper  

Great. And I understand you're working on a fourth book as well. I mean, I'm not sure what you can say about it. But if you could just give us a quick preview of that as well. And when it's expected to hit bookstores. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

Well, it's supposed to come out at the beginning of 2025. But I'm not at liberty to say just yet exactly what it's about. But stay tuned is all I'll say I'm very excited about it. It's different from anything I've ever done before. And I'm very very, very pumped.

Sean Cooper  

You're a book writing machine.

Shannon Lee Simmons  

Like I said, offline, like it fills my cup. I really love it. So it's fun for me, even though it's also painful, you know, the more of writing it's like, ah, but like it's so deeply satisfying for me. I really love writing. So it's really lovely and lucky to have that it was an outlet.

Sean Cooper  

Well, I really enjoyed your first two books there. And I'll be sure to check out this third one as well. So yeah, thanks so much for taking some time to speak with me again today. It was a pleasure to have you on the podcast. 

Shannon Lee Simmons  

Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's always Always a pleasure.

Sean Cooper  

Thanks for listening to another episode of the Burn Your Mortgage podcast. Besides being a podcast host, I’m also an independent mortgage broker. If you or anyone you know, family, friends, co workers or neighbors could ever use any unbiased mortgage advice or a second opinion, feel free to reach out. Email me at sean@burnyourmortgage.ca or call or text me at 647-867-3711 for a free mortgage consultation.

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