Uytae Lee is the creative mind behind ‘About Here’, a YouTube channel dedicated to covering the complex issues surrounding our cities. In addition to the channel, Uytae produces the CBC series ‘Stories About Here.’ Check out more of his work at YouTube.com/abouthere
In my interview with Uytae, we discuss addressing the missing middle, the heritage dilemma, and a “special” solution to the housing supply.
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Full Transcript
Sean Cooper
Welcome to the Burn Your Mortgage Podcast. I'm Sean Cooper, and it's great to be back for another episode. On today's show, I'll be talking to Uytae Lee. Uytae Lee is the creative mind behind ‘About Here’, a YouTube channel dedicated to covering the complex issues surrounding our cities. In addition to the channel, Uytae produces the CBC series ‘Stories About Here". In my interview with Uytae, we discuss addressing the missing middle, the heritage dilemma and a special solution to the housing supply. Without further ado, here's my interview with Uytae Lee.
Sean Cooper
Hi Uytae? How are you doing today?
Uytae Lee
I'm doing well Shawn, how are you?
Sean Cooper
Pretty good. Thanks. I am super excited to have you on the podcast. I'm a big fan of your work watching all of your videos online as well as your CBC videos. And we've been in touch over the last few years here. And yes, when I decided to start up my podcast again, I knew that I wanted to have you back on. So yes, I'm really excited to have you on today and discuss some of these important issues regarding the housing crisis that I think are on a lot of people's minds. So yeah, I'm really excited about this.
Uytae Lee
Oh, it's such an honour to be on this show. And those words mean a lot coming from you, Sean. Yeah. Thanks for having me here.
Sean Cooper
Perfect. Well, let's get started then. So it's not like we're going to discuss any super complicated topics, just solving Canada's housing crisis. I'm sure we can figure it all out by lunchtime. But anyway, so let's try to talk about these topics here. And again, there's no silver bullet to them. And these are just your personal thoughts.
But it's always nice to get everybody's different opinions there, especially when you're reading the newspapers. And they're always so bearish on housing, saying there's going to be the housing market going to crash every single month. So it's just kind of nice to have a more balanced discussion on that rather than just always dumping on homeownership.
Uytae Lee
I hear you.
Sean Cooper
So the first topic that I wanted to discuss is missing middle we often hear, and you did a great video on that there. But we often hear about the lack of housing for the missing middle. First of all, maybe you can talk about it for anyone that's not familiar with the term. What is the missing middle? And yes, I mean, I know that you're based in Vancouver there. But if you're able to share any thoughts that could apply to other cities, maybe you could talk about what is being done to address the missing middle and how cities can do a better job of addressing that there. Because it seems like there's some people slipping through the cracks. And there's not the right type of properties for them that they're looking for.
Uytae Lee
For sure. Yeah. So I mean, to kind of give some context and try to explain what the missing middle is. The missing middle is described as a phenomenon that you can see in a lot of North American cities. And it's basically a situation where a city has a lot of single family houses, single detached houses, and a lot of apartment towers, you know, high rises, condominiums and very little, you know, type of housing that's in between those sizes.
We're talking like townhouses, walk up apartments, row houses, and sort of those sort of middle ground between, like, you know, lower density housing to really high density housing. And the reason why that happens, I describe it as really, ultimately, the result of a political dynamic in cities, especially in North America had a lot of kind of suburban style housing from the 50s 60s that we kind of have a legacy of, but in the sort of, I guess, like towards the end of the 20th century, and more recently, we've been trying to develop denser, more urban neighborhoods, especially in downtown areas, but when that sort of housing development gets proposed in, you know, in a single, detached neighborhoods, partially due to zoning bylaws, but of course, due to sort of opposition by local residents, those sorts of buildings really end up not built and those sorts of neighborhoods.
And so what happens is we just pile up a lot of density and housing into single specific spots, and usually uncontroversial areas, like you know, post industrial lands or empty sites or, you know, near transit hubs. And I don't want to say that's necessarily an evil like awful thing. And I think there's something to be said about, you know, transit oriented developments and kind of really high density towers. I'm not bashing high density towers. But you're right that there is this kind of gap that's created in the market for families who would definitely benefit from more of a ground oriented unit, like a townhouse or a walk up, but don't necessarily have the finances to get into a single detached house, especially in a city like Vancouver.
So I think that's something that, really, I feel like a lot of that, I mean, it's definitely a part I'm not gonna say it's the silver bullet, but it's a part of addressing our housing crisis is, you know, creating this sort of housing, that's really this middle ground between, you know, single detached housing, which is honestly, you know, out of most people's reach in certain Metro contexts, like Vancouver and Toronto, and high rises. So how's that for an explanation?
Sean Cooper
Pretty good. I think we're part of the way they're solving the housing crisis. But we don't want to take too much credit for that. But yes, that's a great explanation there. And that was very well said, because the issue with condos is that they can be great when you're just starting out living on your own or living with your partner. But then, when you're ready to start a family, I mean, it's not so easy in a cramped condo there. And the problem is that there's not a lot of bigger condo units. There are very few, I believe you might have discussed this in one of your videos here. But like, usually, it's one bedroom, two bedrooms are more rare. Three bedrooms, do those even really exist there.
And then the problem is, you really need to make that leap right to the single family home. And there is a lack of townhouses there. So yeah, definitely, it's important to address that missing middle, because not everybody likes going from one extreme to the next, like going from a condo to a house, there really needs to be that kind of rung on the ladder that helps you get from one housing type to the next.
Uytae Lee
That's a good way to put it, for sure. It can be a rung on the ladder, too, it's definitely, you know, right now, it does feel very polarized. And, you know, I don't want to maybe talk too broadly here, but I feel like there is even like, a resulting bit more of a cultural divide or people have argued that to where, you know, there is like a downtown, and then there's, you know, sort of the neighborhoods outside of downtown and it ends up being quite adversarial, you know, people will point to those new towers being pointed and being constructed in a city and really oppose any kind of development in the neighborhood, because it is just creates that really jarring kind of dynamic.
So yeah, like if all the examples we have of new housing are just, you know, 20-30 storey plus high rises, I would understand why, you know, a single detached neighborhood would be wary of new developments in their backyard.
Sean Cooper
Yes, very well said. And another issue that we see crop up in cities all across Canada, not just Vancouver, Toronto, other cities like that are around, like you had a video called The Heritage Dilemma. And like I said, it's kind of a fine balancing act like they want to protect the history and heritage of an area. But that can hold back an area from building more affordable housing, and also putting the land to better use.
So maybe you can just talk a bit about that from the housing supply standpoint, and just mention some of the more interesting points you spoke about in your video there.
Uytae Lee
For sure, I will try to just walk very carefully around this topic, because I absolutely understand, you know, heritage and kind of protecting the spaces we really love in our city that hold cultural value. It's an important part of urban planning, really. So that video I made, I made it specifically about the topic of heritage districts. So this is sort of a more recent policy that's become popular in cities, really right across Canada, where instead of protecting single individual buildings, we protect entire swathes of neighborhoods.
Here in Vancouver, the primary example I point to is a neighborhood called Shaughnessy. It's about gosh, I'm trying to top of my head trying to figure out a percentage. I think there's maybe like 150 to 200 houses in this neighbourhood that because of this policy, we've kind of all protected as like the Shaughnessy heritage district. And for me when I saw that happening, I couldn't help but feel a bit of concern that, you know, I think there's something about protecting individual buildings, but as soon as you'd protect a whole neighborhood of houses, you get into this area where yes, you are having a much broader impact now on housing supply and the creation of new housing supply, but also just it aligns a little bit more politically conveniently aligned some more politically with the interests of, you know, wealthy homeowners in that area who would really not prefer any kind of new housing to be built.
And they use heritage policies such as this to kind of prevent that. For context, Shaughnessy is, yes, full of nice, beautiful old houses, but it's also basically a mansion district. They're all, you know, we're talking like 10, 15 million heritage homes, right in the heart, I would say Vancouver, you know, just outside of the downtown centers. So, to me, you know, like, I think when you create sort of like a broad sort of heritage district, you know, I don't really know who that's benefiting other than the people who live in them, right.
Like if we're protecting heritage so that other people so that, like the general public can really pass by and admire and, you know, really be exposed to our city's history, that's one thing. But you know, if you're just protecting a big neighborhood, from any kind of change at all, it really does end up becoming, you know, a heritage district for the people living in the heritage district, but not really a place that people would go visit and really kind of take themselves.
So for me, I actually, like when I think of heritage, like I love heritage that's kind of blended in and mixed in with the existing urban fabric. You know, I'd look to places like the West End, where you do have mansions that are leftover from the 1920s and 30s. But people have built up apartment towers as well. And other sorts of housing and kind of, you know, general density so that it's very sort of, you know, the heritage feels like it's a public good in those contexts, something that anyone can kind of admire and take in and walk past on the way to work.
Sean Cooper
Now, that's very well said, I mean, I'm, I fall somewhere in the middle as well not to put words in your mouth. But, I'm not a big fan of painting broad strokes and a whole area and designating it as a heritage area unless it really makes sense. I like mixing heritage with modern buildings, the way that they've done it with some baseball stadiums in the US where they basically fit in the old heritage buildings with the brand new baseball stadiums.
I mean, that's kind of I guess, an extreme example, there. But my point is, it doesn't have to be all one or the other. I mean, I like what, and it's a mix of heritage, as well as newer buildings. And it's pretty cool. Like, I don't know, if you can think of any buildings off the top of your head there. But I like how they keep the bones of the heritage building, and then build the new building in combination with that. I mean, there's examples around the world, like, the first thing that comes to mind is with some of these baseball stadiums in the US, but I mean, I'm a fan of when they're able to kind of combine two into one while still increasing the housing supply.
Uytae Lee
Absolutely, I think for sure, some of my favorite examples come from Halifax, Nova Scotia, and that's a city that, you know, you can't touch a single building without touching a building that's like, you know, centuries old. So they really come up with very, like ingenious ways. And it's not that it's completely unique to Halifax, I think it happens kind of all over the world and whatnot, but where they, you know, they preserve the heritage building in the first floor, or first two floors, however big the heritage building is, but they'll add more density on top of it.
And, you know, this gets into an interesting question of like, you know, what does preserving heritage look like, right, you know, is it only heritage, if you preserve just the building, and build nothing else on top of that, don't paint it in any way? You know, it's kind of like that Greek philosopher's question. I forget what it is. But it's, you know, like, you know, if you have a boat, and then over 10 years, like you will end up replacing every piece of the boat, you still have the same boat.
So I think like, there is like this kind of more nuanced discussion that heritage protection honestly deserves, which is, you know, thoughts around yeah, like, what does heritage protection look like? What are we protecting heritage for? And I think, you know, the whole heritage district, this very, like, you know, heavy handed kind of wide reaching sort of policy really misses the opportunity to have those sorts of conversations.
Sean Cooper
No, very well said. I think you're the first person ever to quote a Greek philosopher on my podcast, so that was pretty cool. Thanks. Yes, yes. So you're the first one, hopefully not the last. But that was pretty cool. So yeah, I'm just curious, like, we've touched on it within this podcast here. But it seems housing density and issues around housing supply is so politicized. It seems like the right decisions aren't made because of political reasons.
People are worried about getting reelected and it seems like powerful, special groups push their political power to make sure things don't happen like for example, I mean, not to go off topic, but in Toronto, it happens all the time, for example, areas to make them more livable. We're looking at doing complete streets like making the streets for everyone, making them for pedestrians, making them for cyclists, making them better for businesses, but for example, a neighborhood in Toronto Rosedale, like the wealthy homeowners, they're just pushed back and wanted the status quo.
And it really took a lot of grassroots efforts to actually get anything done. But it seems like there's a lot of nimbyism and people that carry political kind of put the kibosh on certain things. So I'm just curious your thoughts on how to make housing less political and actually get housing built? Because it seems like it's a pretty controversial topic a lot of the time, unless you're kind of doing some of those easy projects that you were talking about like, you know, industrial lands and stuff like that.
Uytae Lee
I mean, I think to some extent, housing will always be something that's political. And because it is something that's tangible, and it's impacting people's neighborhoods, their backyards, you know, when a new development comes up, it is something that you will have feelings about. So, you know, I think the only option we really have, I guess, in a democracy like ours is to try to make the discourse around housing a little bit better.
Oh, I mean, I guess there's like, some argument maybe for like, delegating, you know, housing, controls, taking away powers from municipalities and giving them to provincial governments or federal governments. But that's a whole other can of worms. I'm not going to get into that today. But I think you know, where I come from, is really just improving the education and discourse around housing is really step one for me, just, you know, I think the average person really just cares about living in a good community, having housing that is affordable to them, for their children and their children's children.
You know, there's some real basic pragmatic things that I think everyone can agree with. But it's when you get into the weeds of how to sort of add new housing supply or, you know, keep housing affordable, that's when things get a little bit more challenging and definitely more complicated. So, you know, I think just having more public awareness about those sorts of issues is really step one, you know, in tandem with that, I think for sure with for policymakers, it's important to differentiate, you know, between a valid citizens concern and what I would describe as very exclusionary, kind of classist, nimbyism.
I mean, you mentioned Rosedale, right. Like, I think that's the kind of brand of citizen, you know, input that I honestly feel comes from the wrong place. It's, it's coming from a place of like, you know, we want to preserve a wealthy, exclusive neighborhood that, you know, nobody else can really partake in. And to me that, and I'm not sure that's really the values that everyone else kind of has. But yeah, I think, more specifically speaking around housing, and you know, how we talked about the housing crisis, I've always liked to frame it this way. I actually think the solutions to the housing crisis are rather simple and pretty straightforward, or we have simple and straightforward solutions to the housing crisis, when you really think about it.
But it's, they're all solutions that people are, would be very uncomfortable with, you know what I mean? Yes, in theory, we could, you know, remove all zoning regulations and all, you know, development processes, and just let the private market build as much supply as it wants to wherever. And I'm sure that might be an appealing idea to some people. But I know, that's a very, very concerning idea to others. And by the same token, we could also completely remove any kind of financialization from the housing market, completely bar people from buying second properties, or foreign investors or banks from even investing into property. And I'm sure that would be an appealing solution for some people, but it would be a disastrous solution for other people. And so like, I think that's kind of what I like to make clear is like, it's to some extent, there's a conflict of values and strategies that's happening, as well, when it comes to housing. So yeah, it's just good to know about what those sort of menu items are, rather than really trying to say it's like being too black and white on any one sort of solution.
Sean Cooper
Yes, very well said. Like we said earlier, there's really no silver bullet. But yeah, I think public consultation is key, not just ramming things through because that's really how you build the consensus and the support, but like you said, housing is always going to be political by nature. But yeah, definitely.
There's a better way to do it without leading to like, I think, you know, not just ramming things through consulting with the local people and taking their input. and their thoughts seriously, because like traffic is always a concern. But you can, if people feel like they're being heard, and you're doing things to mitigate the effects of traffic, that's when I think you can build more support for things like that.
Because yeah, I mean, not to go off topic. But I heard that in Vancouver as an example, people weren't really necessarily supportive of bike lanes originally, but then when they actually saw the figures, that it actually boosted business and helped things, the businesses are actually supporting it rather than pushing back against it. So I think once you actually listen to people and show them that their thoughts are being taken seriously, and once they see that, you know, allowing a certain type of property into their areas is not going to destroy it, then they'll be more open minded to that going forward.
Uytae Lee
Totally, totally. Yeah, I'd say it's a combination of presenting really good information, and earnestly engaging with, you know, residents nearby, those sorts of projects. But I also do see a real need for political will. And for planners, and counselors and mayors to kind of advocate for what they want. And, you know, not let it die on the shelf of reports.
Sean Cooper
Great. And we have about a couple minutes left here, but I just wanted to get any more thoughts that you had to share on the housing supply crisis. Anything else interesting that we haven't talked about, like about zoning regulation, like an Ontario right now big topic is cutting the red tape and just getting as much housing built as possible, maybe you can share some interesting tidbits of what Vancouver has done to see success in that area that other parts of Canada might be able to learn from.
Uytae Lee
I mean, I'm not sure if we've seen success, necessarily. But I think, you know, Vancouver, like Toronto, definitely has a real, you know, zoning landscape that is really common in most cities where you have certain areas like the downtown, certain transit corridors, certain specific sites, where we've piled up a lot of housing supply. And then we've left most of the others sort of, I guess, single detached neighbors, we call them Rs one zones, we've really left those kind of more or less the same over the years. But I think we, you know, one sort of interesting tidbit that really, was that stuck with me, when I was doing that video on the missing middle was, you know, I was looking at, you know, why did we come up with these zoning bylaws in the first place? What was the purpose? And what you realize is like, it's a messy history, and I'm not sure it's a history that applies to us today.
So, you know, initially in the past, you know, cities had a lot of concerns around pollution, overcrowding, a lot of really, what is it a big and rather valid concern about, you know, density. And so zoning was kind of a response to that to basically create neighborhoods where you would have very little risk of overcrowding, very little risk of fires and other sorts of, you know, I got gosh, sort of threats.
And, you know, that's kind of one sort of valid reason, not sure if it really applies today, but I think I can understand where it comes from. But the other sort of concerning thing I really found was that a lot of it was motivated by racism and classism. I mean, here in Vancouver, the Zoning Bylaw came right around when there was an influx of Chinese immigrants to work on the railroads here.
And if you look at sort of political cartoons, from the time and sort of the writing of the time, there's a real fear of allowing housing, like apartments that would house you know, Chinese immigrants into white neighborhoods. And you know, that story rings true for even more true in American cities where it's, you know, black and white neighborhoods that are, you know, basically being sort of segregated by the zoning process. So, I feel like when you kind of look at it that way, it makes you wonder if that sort of regulatory framework is applicable in this sort of contemporary context.
Sean Cooper
Thanks for listening to another episode of the burn your mortgage podcast. Besides being a podcast host, I'm also an independent mortgage broker. If you or anyone you know, family, friends, co-workers, or neighbors could ever use any unbiased mortgage advice or a second opinion, feel free to reach out, email me at Sean that's s e a n@burnyourmortgage.ca or call or text me at 647-867-3711 for a free mortgage consultation. Also, be sure to head on over to www.burnyourmortgage.ca and sign up for my free weekly newsletter. As a small token of my appreciation, you'll be able to download my ultimate mortgage checklist on choosing the perfect mortgage. I look forward to hearing from you and helping you with all your mortgage needs. Once again, thanks for listening.